RL in NZ

[safrican]

Can any of the Antipodeans tell me what the situation is in NZ re RL i terms of popularity, ethnic profile, provinces etc. I saw that a layer from Canterbuy was in the Warriors side this weekend, an I thought that it was only played in Aukland and a bit in Wellington . Is it played in schools at all?

Regards

[kier]

In terms of popularity it does well - most NZers have a pretty good understanding of the game, most enjoy watching it and the stars of the NRL are household names.

There are regional leagues in all the main cities - Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch and even Dunedin. There are also other competitions in othe areas - notably the West Coast.

There are several schools that play RL - some such as St Pauls and Otahuhu (Akd), Aranui (chch) are 'rugby league schools' - it's the main game. Other schools such as Kelston (Akd) and Wainuiomata (wgtn) have a strong history.

The problem in schools is that RL programmes often live or die at the whim of the school management - I recently found it impossible the maintain RL at the school where I teach despite the school producing two full internationals and several Batercard Cup players - and reaching a National Schools final (all in a short 5 year spell).

Basically - it's a population issue - if there are large populations (relative to NZ standards) there will be a RL comp of some description.

As far a ethnicity - it's very much a polynesian/maori participation sport (with the exception of the south island - but even in these regions the numbers of polynesian/maori players will be far higher than the proportion of the community).

As far as interest - it's pretty much across the board.....although often the younger the person to more open thay are to the idea of supporting/watching/playing RL.

[rus]

One of the curtain raisers for the Test played last Friday night was an Under 16 game played between an Australian Indigenous team & a NZ Under 16 team.

The non-North Island players for the NZ side were:

FB - Tyler Jarden (Canterbury)
Centre - Jesse Rogers (Canterbury)
Half - Sean Scott (Canterbury)
Winger- Ethan Negri (West Coast)
Hooker - Matt McIlwrick (Canterbury)

Of the squad of 19 listed in the program 9 came from Auckland, 5 from Canterbury,1 each from Northland, West Coast (South Island), Bay of Plenty & Taranaki.

I don't know if it is true but someone told me there are more than 70 players in the NRL squads in Australia who are eligible to play for NZ. This doesn't include the Warriors.



Seems to be a bit of a backlash against union in NZ at the moment:
www.nzherald.co.nz/section/4/story.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10434652

[safrican]

Thanks very much.

In reference to the "letters" thread you posted Rus, I think that the S14 has also devalued the Currie up here.

We also used to have a club competition with the top clubs partaking (I think that it was around Easter) and that is no longer on the go, and if it is, we no longer hear about it.

Not to say though that the sport is not still popular, just not on the top of everyone's mind.

Regards

[rus]

Its remarkable what a winning side will do:

Warriors turn Kiwis' headsArticle from: By Josh Massoud
www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22252632-5006066,00.html
August 16, 2007 12:00am

RUGBY-obsessed Kiwis are "losing their religion" thanks to a flighty temptress known as the New Zealand Warriors.

With just three weeks remaining before the Rugby World Cup, New Zealanders are deserting their beloved 15-man game in favour of the resurgent Warriors.

After toying with a nation's hearts and minds for over a decade, the NRL's most-enigmatic outfit finally appears to be winning both after an unprecedented cross-code victory last weekend.

In a first for Auckland, Saturday night's Warriors-Titans fixture easily outdrew the marquee clash of NZ's national provincial rugby competition.

Normally guaranteed to generate a handsome gate, the derby between Auckland and champions Waikato could only muster 13,559 fans at Eden Park.

Across town at Mt Smart Stadium, 20,609 supporters watched the Warriors romp closer to a top-four berth.

Only two hours separated the kick-offs, and ticket prices were comparable.

But it's not only in the terraces that died-in-the-wool NZ rugby devotees are feeling sheepish. In lounge rooms across the Shaky Isles, the Warriors outrated their leather-patched rivals by 2:1 on SkySports.

According to AGB Neilsen Media, 117,600 people watched the rugby at 5.30pm. Kicking off at 7.30pm, the league then scored a knockout-win with 182,200 viewers.

The astonishing victory for league has left sports experts aghast.

Veteran radio and television commentator Murray Deaker said the Warriors were benefiting from "disenchantment" among rusted-on rugby fans.

Deaker plugs into 15 hours of radio talkback sentiment every week, and reported Kiwi punters are finding rugby "as boring as old boots" because of rule interpretations.

"Rugby used to be a religion, and it probably will be like that again when the World Cup comes around," Deaker, a former provincial rugby player, said.

"But people are disenchanted by the rules in rugby. At the breakdown the referee blows his whistle and no one knows what he is going to do.

"The new scrum engagement rules mean the teams have a chat, and a cup of tea before packing down. It's boring as old boots.

"The whole year has been dedicated to the World Cup. There were 10 All Blacks rested on the weekend. That's not what people want to see.

"On the other hand, there's a lot of good league being played."

TVNZ sports anchor Tony Veitch agreed, adding the All Blacks' "obsession with winning the World Cup" had created a backlash.

"If we don't win the World Cup, rugby will be in big trouble in New Zealand," Veitch continued. "The fans have had a love-hate relationship with the Warriors for a long time, but league is winning hands down at the moment.

"I was down at a ski resort in the middle of the North Island (on Saturday) and about 40 people came into the bar wanting to reserve a spot to watch the league. There might have been one or two watching the rugby. That's unheard of."

Ironically, Warriors CEO Wayne Scurrah had desperately sought to avoid a scheduling clash with the traditional NPC blockbuster.

"Historically any (rugby) game played in Auckland on the same night, we would anticipate half their crowd," Scurrah said. "This was the only weekend we couldn't get it right with the NRL and we were expecting about 12,000."

With more than 21,000 tickets already pre-sold for the Warriors' final home game against Manly in round 24, league's revival is only getting stronger.

"That looks like it will be our first 27,000 sell-out . . . ever," Scurrah said.

Some interesting comments.

[rus]

The backlash:

www.stuff.co.nz/4172818a1823.html
Rugby in a league of its own
By DUNCAN JOHNSTONE - RugbyHeaven | Tuesday, 21 August 2007

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AdvertisementAllow the Warriors their time in the sun but don't fear a rugby league takeover. That's the advice to the worry-warts out there predicting doom and gloom for our national game.




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The Warriors are cock-a-hoop right now although their loss to Canberra last weekend might be a bit of a reality check for themselves and their fans.

To my mind their growing support this year is more to do with their success than any out and out disenchantment with rugby as some of the dullards on talkback radio might have us believe.

League fans are a brutal lot and gaining favours from the fickle Auckland sporting scene is a tough business. In the leaguies' eyes it's all black and white – winners are grinners and losers are ... well, just losers.

That's why the Warriors have battled to get people through the gates for so long and that's why now, on the back of an entertaining brand of football and a win-loss ratio in the right order, they are finally getting bums on seats.

Good luck to 'em. But as a rugby fan, applaud them for the moment rather than fearing them long-term.

I'm sure the good rugby folk of Napier, Nelson and Blenheim aren't intimidated by what's going on at Mt Smart Stadium. The home bases for the Magpies and Makos are enjoying similar times to the Warriors – success on the field means success through the turnstiles.

League will need more than the Warriors to be a genuine threat to rugby here.

The 13-man code clings to the coat-tails of Australia for all its success through the NRL and an occasional competitive test series with the Aussies.

When it has a meaningful and well-supported national competition in New Zealand along with an effective local administration then it might be time for rugby to start looking over its shoulder.

When it has test opposition beyond Australia and Great Britain then league might really start to help its cause.

Until then, league is what it is – a sport with may more lows than highs. League and their supporters should simply enjoy their time in the spotlight for the moment.

As the Raiders showed, when it comes to any footballing code you can be heroes one minute and unlucky blokes the next.

League's greatest threat was back in rugby's "amateur" era when money could entice players to switch. The professional times have eased that problem and perhaps even turned the tide the other way in areas like Australia.

Rugby is rugby to New Zealanders and always will be. Yes, it needs a bit of tweaking but that is under way.

If the experimental rules work out and the highly-anticipated global forum on the game happens during the World Cup, the product should get even better.

Speaking of the experimental rules, rugby should be wary that it doesn't try to imitate league.

The general feel is that the "new" game is extremely fast. "Mate, it's like playing sevens," is how one Counties-Manukau player described the pace of play to me as the New Zealand trialling of the laws goes on in the provincial B competition.

Like many, he feared it could be the end for the "fatties". There are fewer scrums and lineouts so the big men could be an endangered species.

One of the many appeals of rugby is that it truly is a game for all shapes and sizes.

League has its smaller men and bigger players but the general range of physiques isn't as broad as rugby. That's why so many centres and wings in league end up as forwards as they grow older and slower.

That just doesn't happen in rugby and long may that continue.

[kier]

It's an interesting time to listen to sports radio in NZ at the moment.

For the first time that I can remember there is frequent comment about misgivings with the rules/spectacle of RU.

[rus]

Interesting comments - so far:

www.stuff.co.nz/4174124a4621.html
A lot of what you say is true and there is an element of common sense about it all, but what you fail to touch upon is the message that those "dullards" (I prefer to call them realists) are sending - Rugby Union is becoming a bore. The irony is as the game's 'genius's' seek to make the game more attractive to watch, they are in fact confusing the masses (in NZ only) even more. Win, lose or draw the Warriors play an attractive brand of Rugby - yeah that's Rugby League is a form of Rugby too. You need to be a Rugby Union purist to enjoy the majority of the Union games on offer at the moment and whether you like it or not Duncan Johnstone, that number is dwindling.
-Simon

Yes I probably agree ... but as a Kiwi living in Australia and having watched Super 14 deteriorate over the last 5 years it is imperative that rugby get its act together. It is no fun watching referee dominated matches with penalties awarded with gay abandon ... and often in a random manner.
-Murray

Is Duncan Johnstone aware that some rugby league forwards have made theswitch to rugby union as international backs eg Andy Farrell (current England centre).
-Kelly

Wow, it never ceases to amaze me the one eyed garbage that some rugby heads spew out! The superiority they need to feel, if Rugby has nothing to fear answer me these questions. 1, Why did the French government for feel the need to out law the playing of the game? 2, Why is it that NZ rugby receives the most amount of financial support from Sparc, when the NZRU has millions in it's coffers? 3, Why did union feel the need to black mail local government to not allow league played at common sporting grounds. Actually forget answering my questions, take a look at some of the articles and links in Wikipedia and about the web and see for yourself, I think you'll find it rather enlightening if not informative. I've observed some of these new rules and it appears to be pretty similar leagues own 10 metre rule. Also take a look at a number of the union franchises and you'll find many who have used or are using leaguie's as defensive coaches. I remember when I was at high school, we were allowed to play bull rush, yet league was banned. I played for our high school's 5th, 4th, 3rd and 1st Fifteen rugby teams. We were coached by a leaguie and still hold the record score of 96 to 6 set in 1990. It is my hope that as more light is shed on the extremes that Rugby Union has gone or will go to, to disadvantage Rugby League. For fear of sounding a bit like Fox Mulder the truth is out there, and the media too needs to look at the way that it has failed to portray league in a more positive light. It distresses me to think as a Kiwi we can only ask for a fair go, and it appears that League never has been given that chance!! Fan of all things League.
-Bruce

Completely agree... the Aussie domestic competition is underway using the experimental new laws and it's been a try-fest so far... I don't think the bigger guys will be phased out.. where we still have proper scrums and lineouts there will always be a need for the bulkier Hayman's and Sommerville's (not sure about the Dunning's or Du Randt's) of this world... yes, maybe a bit fitter but not I think like the aging league wingers mentioned in the article. League is league and always will be... a simple sport played by people not good enough to play rugby.
-Chris

Rugby is dreadfully boring compared to league.
-John

Just had a read of Duncan Johnstone's article "Union in a league of its own". I must say that it is a very poor piece of writing that lacks any facts, pretty must shows how ignorant union journalist are towards rugby league and is extremely disrepectful towards the rugby league public in New Zealand and Australia. Firstly Duncan, the public have lost interest in union simply because it is boring, lacks entertainment and has a stopage every 30 seconds. In this day and age, who the hell wants to watch that type of c--p. Only a clown like yourself. The public have tuned into the Warriors because they are showing us all what real running Rugby looks like. Secondly, the new laws. Really. All these laws will do is recreate the game of rugby league 50 years ago. You know back in the 1950s and 60s. Just take out two fat men and get rid of the boring lineouts and what will you have? Think about it.
-Glenn

Of course Duncan Johnstone is going to support rugby because he writes for a rugby publication. Rugby league is taking over in New Zealand. I have friends in christchurch that are not watching the Air New Zealand Cup, instead they're watching the rugby league. Rugby union is a very boring game. They don't pass the ball to the backline anymore,they always keep the ball in the forwards,and viewers don't want to see forwards with the ball, they want to see the backs run with it. The warriors are going to be the new All Blacks. If the warriors win the NRL grand final, expect to see the young kids switch to rugby league.
-Mark

Talk about having an axe to grind, Duncan Johnstone is typical of the 'head in the sand' sports writers in New Zealand. Baseless assumptions about league, that are backed up by no fact whatsoever. Fans are turning away from the NPC, and Johnstone's statement that Rugby League relies on the success of the Australian game would have me conclude that Johnstone believes Rugby Union to be an International game? Truly laughable.
-Reece

What gets me is the ''Rugby is rugby to New Zealanders and always will be''. The assumption that every NZer likes union pisses me off. You only have to look at the crowd figures in Christchurch, Wellington, Auckland, Hamilton, and Dunedin to realise that people (in big numbers) are turning away from union. It may be a temporary thing, but the way that Rugby people reassure themselves that everything is fine and that league will be irrelevant once the Warriors start losing leads me to suggest that Rugby Union may be on the decline long term. In terms of watching sport on TV, the NRL is in direct competiton with the Air New Zealand Cup. I know which one out of the two me and all of my mates have been watching this year. People aren't liking what they are getting from Union, so they are turning to league and enjoying it a lot more. If the rugby people want to put this down to the success of the Warriors then so be it, but IMO people are recognising that the NRL as a Competition is awesome. That doesn't mean that league will suddenly overtake union here, but if the public's current opinion of the two sports (which has been a build up over the last 2-3 years imo) maintains over the next 10 years then league could make serious inroads. I just don't like the way these Rugby Union w----s just dismiss League, although that could work to our advantage long term.
-Phil/Nick

It's a shame that one kiwi writer would put down such a sport. Why would Duncan Johnstone want to put down a team that is doing so well? Why is hugby (Yes I did say hugby) dominating everything from newspaper thru to radio station and on TV? League has always been second best and I enjoy watching the Warriors from the time they came into the NRL. I've always have been a supporter of league and I like to support the Auckland/Blues in rugby, but now the Warriors are doing well everyone is now jumping on board or a person like Duncan is dragging the sport thru the mud (have you ever played rugby Duncan or do you just like talking about it?). It's a shame these types of people take rugby so serious, because at the end of the day if my team loses in either league/rugby it's just a game Duncan. Get over it and move on. Maybe before the World Cup New Zealand should look at releasing some of the Polynesian players to play for their countries and then the World Cup would be more exciting rather then having the usual winners.
-Robert My thoughts exactly Duncan! ... enjoy your views on "The Press Box" also. Keep it up.
-Brad James

Duncan Johnstone is spot on!
-Ron K

Obviously written by a rugby fan who more than likely went to a school that would not allow any of its boys to play league because it would distract them from their first XV, especially if they succeeded. Rugby League will always be the poor cousin to union in New Zealand for the simple fact that the rugby public and New Zealand Schools will not allow the sport to be played at that level on mass. If all sports were put on a level playing field and school kids were allowed to make their own decisions about what sports they choose to play then maybe league would have a chance of developing further in New Zealand. But the rugby public are so terrified of the All Blacks not winning, that every kid in New Zealand that doesn't play our most precious game must be forced to by their schools especially if they are good at league. The story is the same for many current All Blacks, "I played league until I went to such and such a school that was exclusively rugby" with many of these kids told that they were not to play league for a club or else. A similar theme would be, I played league and was at a bad school until such and such a school offered me a scholarship if I played rugby for them, but I was to stop playing league or the scholarship would be withdrawn. Union has never been under threat from league in New Zealand, rather under siege from their own fear of failure and self-importance. Union has nothing to fear from league except for the fact that it is a better game to watch and when given a go most players rather enjoy the simplicity of it.
-Grant Hay

You guys are blind to the fact that Rugby has slowed down so much in the last few years, whereas League has got quicker and quicker and makes much better entertainment. You don't even the mention the dark side. Football (Soccer is a thing of the past) is also re-igniting the crowds with Phoenix. To prove it, Wellington played Auckland in NPC at the Westpac, 1100 fans turned up. The next day The Phoenix took on Sydney in the ring of fire for a friendly, 6500 (very loud) fans turned up and cheered for their team for a full 90 minutes. About time the press stuck their necks out, looked around and they would see what is really happening to New Zealand sports.
-Joe

You?re just jealous Duncan. Rugby league is just everything union wishes to be... you know running with the football, players that can actually pass and catch to a high standard, fit and fast athletes instead of fat who have to stop for a rest any time there is the slightest hint of continuity in the match, brutal defence with big hits etc, etc; I could go on and on but brain washed people like yourself would still never get it Duncan, you would rather sit around watching kick and clap and debate why Union is so boring in between all the stoppages in play.
Anton and Tash

What the warriors showed is just how much potential Rugby League has to draw the crowds. A huge part of that is star power. People will pay good money to watch the NRL's stars, but why would you pay to watch club players in an over-hyped competition that trades on people's provincial loyalities rather than delivering a quality product? I think your article misses the point, why is rugby changing the rules of the game? Because it isn't working. This is not a tweaking of the rules, it is an all out assault on the game itself designed to change entirely the style because the current format is boring. Get the stars back, give us a decent product and people will go along. Because team sheets with no-name after no-name is an insult to the knowledgable rugby public in NZ, and the crowd figures show that they aren't falling for it.
-Jonathan Norman

[Basil2]

I think you boys might be a tad overly optimistic about the success of rl in NZ. You don't replace a well entrenched national code so simply. Just take a look at the Swans in Sydney. Success, but hardly a threat to rl now are they.

[rus]

Baz - I don't think anyone here suggested that RL was taking over in NZ.

[kier]

Agreed - I'm not suggesting that RL is 'taking over'. What I am pointing out is that there is a sea change insofar as RU is now under the microscope as a spectacle and that people in NZ are (possibly for the first time) honestly appraising the sport.

Interestingly in NZ this weekend the three major events were;

North Harbour v Waikato Ranfurly Shield Challenge (RU)
Warriors v Manly (RL)
Pheonix v Melbourne (soccer)

Of the three the RU fixture was lagging behind the other two in terms of media attention, crowd and SKY viewing figures (not official yet).

Even 5 years ago you wouldn't get a credible response if you were to suggest that a Shield Challenge game would be overshadowed by both soccer and RL in NZ.

[rus]

On the subject:

www.stuff.co.nz/4178710a1823.html

By JOHN MATHESON - Sunday News | Sunday, 26 August 2007

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The Air New Zealand Cup is branded as the world's greatest provincial rugby competition but in reality it is one big bore.

Last week Sunday News had a clock on all seven provincial games. And the results showed that out of a possible 560 minutes of action the ball was in play for only 255 minutes.

That means fans watching on television were served up five hours of - in NZRU-speak - "anticipation" and in reality "nothingness".

The worst game in terms of action was Otago's dour 18-15 win against Taranaki. It had only 31 minutes and 55 seconds of action out of a possible 80 minutes.

When told of our report NZRU staffer Joe Locke promised to send Sunday News statistics which showed the "action minutes" were on a steady increase.

But the report never arrived.

NZRU CEO-in-waiting Steve Tew did front for an interview however and suggested the dead time - when fans are waiting for a lineout to form or a scrum to be re-set (again) - is "that static chess element which is part of the difference between rugby and the other codes".

"I know a lot of people who I speak to who go to see a rugby league game live and are always disappointed," Tew offered.

"And while the ball may be in play for 60 minutes out of the 80 (in league) there is an awful lot of repetitive action whereas that's not the case in rugby."

Tew's comparison of union with league couldn't come at a worse time.

While the Air New Zealand Cup has failed to register with fans the Warriors will play in front of a 26,672 sellout at Mt Smart Stadium today.

"There's no doubt that right now league is a better game," says former NZRU boss David Rutherford.

"Rugby has to be concerned about the entertainment value of the product. You have to give league credit.

"This is its centenary year in Australasia and from the outset of the code it has made changes to improve its product. Rugby need only look at the NRL and the AFL to see what needs to be done."

Rugby bosses are aware they have a problem. That's the reason the IRB have been trialling new laws in different competitions including the Air New Zealand Cup "B" grade tournament.

Last night Rutherford warned of the importance of an All Blacks win at the World Cup to ensure rugby reconnects with its fans after a year that has included a Super 14 robbed of All Blacks for seven weeks, a tour by France "C", a test against Springboks "B" and another All Blacks season of rotation.

"Obviously if the All Blacks succeed in France and win the Cup that is a whole lot better than the alternative," Rutherford said.

"The failure of the big eight countries for more than five years not to deal with the obvious issue of the global season and player welfare issues is coming home to roost.

"New Zealanders as a whole don't have an appreciation of the competitive challenge.

"In Australia rugby has to fight for coverage.

"In New Zealand we sometimes take it for granted that rugby is at the top of the heap.

"The fact Sunday New is highlighting the fact that each weekend there is five hours of dead time in the Air New Zealand Cup should be alarming to the NZRU.

"They are in the entertainment industry and that's not a stat - regardless of whether it's improving or not - they'd want highlighted, especially given the success and attraction around league at the moment."